athiest response 10
quoting justin:
I always get comments about the Jesus' death on the cross...but let me assure you that the nails were real...the Romans were cruel torturers and they would not spare their prisoners the luxury of rope...the whole point of the crucifixion was to ensure that the prisoner had to support himself with his own strength...and that's why the nails were placed where they were...the nails were placed between the two bones in your arm (ulna and radius) and purposely placed to crush the nerves in that area...so whatever pressure was placed on the arm would result in excuriating pain...the same thing was done to His feet...except His feet would be placed on top of each other before the nail went through...Jesus as a prisoner, would also have his arms dislocated making it even more difficult to breath...the cross would be splintery so every breathe would forces pieces of wood into the back of Jesus...so whether you inhaled or exhaled you were in pain...the way Jesus would have died on the cross is that after awhile, the labour to breathe would be too intensive because His muscles would have all torn in His chest...then Jesus would die of lack of air...if you believe that Jesus' arms were tied to the cross, I suggest you do some research into the Roman method of crucifixion...it's not as pleasant as you believe it is...
I won't debate the above statements. This was something that happened almost 2000 years ago, during which time, there may have been several different interpretations of what REALLY happened. Even now, we can't recreate all the details at the scene of a crime that happened just days ago. Stories (like those in the Bible) get twisted over the course of time.
Hmm... You state that Protestants, Catholics, etc. are all "Christians" yet you don't hesitate to discredit Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses as Christians. Do they not read from the same Bible and believe in the same God that you do? Why are you so quick to ensure that I understand they aren't "Christians"?
I can't help but laugh when you say that "I have yet to see an Atheist or Satanist argue with reason with the fervor of a Christian." We have been debating through logic and reason throughout this debate. Sure Dennis occasionally throws in his own opinions mixed in with facts, but I really do believe "our side" has been throwing logical FACT at you time and time again. Please do not use the words "reason" and "fervor" together. Reason is associated with logical thinking. Fervor is associated with religious zealotry.
It has been the Christians however who have tried to provide us with "logical" reasoning to prove their points. Some of them have been valid, but it seems for the most part that the attitude has been to just pretend to give up and say "Well, you'll never understand the grace of God until you learn to just let him in and experience him". Maybe I'm missing something, but I've never come close to experiencing God. I'm sorry, but this has got to be the most half-assed way of trying to convince me to believe. You can't even explain Him to me. All of you speak in generalities.
Let me clear up who Lucifer is...Lucifer is Satan...Lucifer was also an angel created by God, one with a lot of power as well, because he was able to muster support...but because of his greed for power, he tried to overthrow God...but he failed and was cast down from Heaven...Lucifer was not borrowed from any other religion...
Unfortunately, you are COMPLETELY wrong here. If you had done your homework, and not read just from your Bible, you would have found out that Lucifer is in fact a Latin name meaning 'shining one', originally used by the Romans to refer to the "morning star" Venus.
Lucifer was NOT used as another name for "Satan" until St. Jerome interpreted it as such. The word Satan in fact is Hebrew for "adversary". Satan however is not to be interpreted as the adversary of God but rather of mankind. He was given the task of proving man was an unworthy creation. In fact, he is not opposing, but rather enforcing God's will. I'm going to copy a piece of text from a site I found explaining Satan and the idea of Hell and whatnot. This is EXACTLY the type of propaganda that Christianity has been propagating for the last several centuries:
"Later, as Judaism absorbed such ideas as Zoroastrian dualism and concepts about angels during the Exile, and then as Christianity borrowed various concepts from pagan religions in order to get pagan converts to accept Christianity more easily, the concept of an evil power ruling an underground domain of punishment for the wicked became fixed in Christian doctrine. In such a doctrine, elements of the Graeco-Roman god Pluto/Vulcan/Hephaestus, the Underworld, and various aspects of Nordic/Teutonic mythology may be traced."
How convenient. Scare people into believing by telling them there is this terrible place you will go if you don't believe.
Funny the kind of Christian things you can learn from a non-Christian.
There is so much here that deals with God's grace...and the concept of His everlasting forgiving nature...yeah, we do sin and we will sin again...and probably do the same sin over and over and over...but we do not keep sinning...as I suggested in my previous response, read Philip Yancey's book: What's So Amazing About Grace...as for missing out on being human, I could say you're missing out as well...humans are made with a void which only God can fill...why else do we insanely chase after dreams of wealth, fame, pleasure?...its an attempt to fill that gap...but try as we may, we never seem to be fully satisfied...so I may be so bold to say that non-Christians are the ones living meaningless lives because they spend it all on frivolous (sp?) exploits...and they die unsatisfied because they haven't done it all, or seen it all...being human means being reconciled with your Creator...not trying to come out on top...
So are you saying now that Christians don't have the drive to succeed? To make mad cash and live a comfortable life with a nice car and a nice house? To make the people around you happy? To volunteer to help people who need help? Are you saying that you are content to live life with no goals in life but simply to enjoy God's grace. You say you have lost nothing by believing in a God that may not exist, however, in the event that he doesn't, then would you not have lived life to its fullest? You say that you have this belief in God to fill in the intrisic void in you. Why not have it all? Why not live life to its fullest (in the non-religious ways) regardless of whether you believe in God or not?
I think we all try to seek the truth here. That is why we keep debating in these e-mails. Unfortunately, I don't think there is enough truth in Christianity anymore. There are far too many sheep who follow without thinking or believing. It becomes hard to separate truth from propaganda. Truth comes from knowledge of facts. Propaganda comes from people trying to push their own agendas. Over the course of time Christianity has been twisted and bastardized so much that the truth behind it has been lost. Newer religions such as Satanism (founded in the 1960's) are clearer in their ideals and beliefs with greater relevance to people of this day and age. What am I trying to say? Christianity needs to trim the fat and separate the facts from non-facts. Once the truth comes out in a convincing manner, then atheists such as myself may begin to understand what you say as being with Him and understanding what God's grace is.
Until then, if I said that I did understand, I would be just like those kids at the rave in the movie "Go" who get sold Aspirin but are told that it's Ecstasy and they believe that they're high after swallowing them. The placebo effect is amazingly strong. I wonder how many of you Christians are taking a placebo?
Cheers,
-Justin
Just an addendum... if you guys want to read up on Lucifer and the truth behind him, here are some links:
